So I had a PI for my five top candidates. I had a

transcription of the interview, and the final tool I used is a

tool called Crystal nose, which uses AI to create a DISC profile

from the person's LinkedIn and other online tools. So I had a

transcription of an interview, a PI and a DISC profile which

matched the candidates with my DISC profile. And so I gave

chat, GPT, , C, R, I T, context, role, interview task. I

said the context is, I'm hiring an integrator. And I uploaded

the job description of the integrator, and I explained that

this is part of traction and this great book by Gina Whitman.

And I said, your role is you're a hiring consultant. You're one

of the top hiring consultants in the entire world, and you have

expertise in disc profiles and predictive index, and you're

going to help me find the right match for my personality and

this role and the 10 golden rules company, and it's built a

lot of knowledge about Jay Berkowitz and the 10 golden

rules company, because I've been using the 4.0 the paid version

of chat GPT, we do as well. I said, interview me. Ask me up to

five clarifying questions before you complete your task. And the

questions are fantastic. Do you want this person for a short

period of time, or do you want them to be a long term member of

your team in a really? Is it? Is

it a freelance gig? Is it a short term gig? Is it a

hybrid, right? Or, or is it a long term commitment?

And chat, GPT asked me that question because I

asked it to interview me to clarify. And finally, the task

was to rate the candidates by the criteria outlined in the job

interview. And the results were phenomenal. Take your breath

away.

Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening,

whatever time this podcast finds you, welcome to the 10

GoldenRules of Internet Marketing for Law Firms Podcast.

I'm Jay Berkowitz, founder of 10 Golden Rules, author of this

book, The 10 Golden Rules of Online Marketing. And normally

I'm the one doing the interviewing on these podcasts.

But today I'm being interviewed by Ivy Slater, and this was done

for her podcast. But she's an amazing woman. She was a part of

our 10 golden rules tgr live conference that we held in

March. She'll be back again next March. I hope, because she's

awesome, you guys are going to love her. And this is a little

different. She's interviewing me, so today you get to hear a

little bit more from me. Hope that's okay, and if you like it,

do us a favor. Subscribe Like whatever podcast vehicle you're

listening to, iTunes, podbeam on YouTube. Love you for a

subscription and a five star review. Anyways, here we go with

me being interviewed by Ivy.

Hi, it's Ivy Slater. Welcome to today's episode of

her success story. I am so excited. You are joining us

during this legal resource podcast series. This is a first

time ever, the first time we've done a series. We've done many

series around legal, but we have not done a series with all kinds

of legal resources. So for those listeners who are about to say,

Oh, I'm not legal, I'm going to skip this one. Hold it. Stay

right there. Everything we're talking about today and in the

series is applicable to all other industries today. We're

talking about marketing, we've talked about AI, we've talked

about hiring. All of this is important in all industries.

We're focusing it on legal, because a lot of these people

are involved in the legal but the content itself is helpful.

So stay tuned as I introduce you to Jay Berkowitz, who's a dear

friend, colleague and a leader of love meters, somebody that I

follow, somebody who I learn from, and I think that's

important. I think we're all no matter where we are in our

careers, in our leadership journeys, in our

entrepreneurship journeys, we should always be in the journey

of learning. Jay is the founder and CEO of 10 golden rules

Internet Marketing for law firms. He also has a 10 golden

rules podcast, and he's a author of numerous books. He has been

in this industry for over 25 years, and day, out of

politeness to both of us, I'm going to cut it off at 25 for

the book. Two of us, welcome you. Had a great event, 10

golden rules that I was fortunate to be at. I met great

people, and most importantly, I learned so I always have to ask

and jumping in, how'd you get into this thing? How'd you get

into this industry? How'd you get into legal marketing? How'd

you get into digital content? Where'd this come from?

Well, first of all, thank you so much for the

introduction. Maybe next year at the tgr live conference you

could do my intro, because that was one of the best ever. You

got it, I'll be back. Your kind words. So I guess I started out.

I worked in research and summer jobs, and I met this guy who had

an ad agency, and we were doing a project with him. We traveled.

It was like all these guys did was have fun and cover they're

interviewing people about what they thought about TV

commercials. It was all really cool. I. So I went and asked him

for a job once I graduated, and he said, Well, we just lost an

account to these guys across town go see them, and I got this

great job on the McDonald's restaurants account.

Wow, that's, that's a hell of a job after college.

So my first job full time I was, we were

actually doing advertising and marketing. We were doing TV

commercials, radio billboards, and this was up in Canada. And

then I went on to skip a few steps to be the Director of

Marketing at McDonald's restaurants of Canada. Got a $40

million budget, and then I went to Coca Cola, worked on the,

maybe the longest marketed brand in history. It was amazing. It's

very hard to come up with a new idea that they hadn't tried

before.

I have to say, learning, following like icons,

like Coca Cola, in their marketing journeys, yeah, in

what they do over the years is an education in itself. And now

I know why you're also an adjunct professor at times,

right? So anyways, great experiences. And

then the internet came along, and I'm working at Coca Cola,

and they wouldn't let us do anything fun with the website.

We only played the coke jingle on the website, and Pepsi had

these fun, interactive games. And I'm like, we really have an

opportunity here. So I took a job with Sprint as a director of

marketing in the early days of internet, getting people their

first emails, getting companies their first websites, and

parlayed that into a job opportunity in United States.

Thank you. To eat diets. Com sponsored me into this great

was very early, you know. And

obviously I was thinking that is, this is the

marketing. Yeah,

Google was in beta. Mark Zuckerberg was in

high school. We were spending $40 million running banner ads

on MSN, AOL and Yahoo, and bringing over 100,000 people a

day to the website. But we're doing very sophisticated

internet marketing. We're doing AB testing. I produced a new

banner ad campaign every week because we were burning out the

ads. We're spending so much money, the average lot of work,

the average target, like we, 92% female, would see our banner ads

like nine, nine to 10 times per week. And back, you know, yeah,

back in the day, Slater graphics, my old printing

company. Our email address was AOL. I saw those great and I was

your female target 1,000%

and everybody saw them because we were just a huge

advertiser. And again, it was the early days when you're

spending $40 million so I had all this tremendous experience

where I got to find out what banner ads got clicks, what

landing pages worked. We tried different offers, we tried

different sales funnels, we did different website designs,

different colors, different emails. We had a huge email

list, over 10 million names, and we did subject line tests every

day. We were very, very at that time, yeah, very sophisticated,

very early on, yeah, and I was asked to speak at the Direct

Marketing Association to tell our story. And I said, Well, I

would love to tell our story, and I will give you a bunch of

great e diets case studies, but I also want to build my own

personal brand. And so I came up with this concept of the 10

golden rules, because I was always big on priority list and

top 10 List. Matter of fact, we had a great top 10 list at E

diets, and we were trying to do over 100 projects. And I said,

let's focus and we we picked our top 10 list, and the first one

was to launch the Atkins diet. We got to deal with Doctor

Atkins before he died, and that was unbelievably successful. And

then we launched efit and the

Zonday, okay, I knew people who bought that from you,

yeah. So the

focus was fantastic. And so I love top 10

lists, and so I wrote the 10 golden rules of online

marketing, and I spoke at this Direct Marketing Association,

and five or six people came running up to me at the end. And

so we have to hire you as a consultant. And my business was

really born right there that day.

Sometimes it always takes it takes initiative, which

is what you took you had a vision. It's like, okay, instead

of just doing it for this company, I'm going to do it. I'm

going to create a personal brand. And there's always, and

this is a whole nother podcast interview that Jay and I think

what I'd love to do with you one day is talking about developing

your personal brand within your business brand. Let's stay on on

the marketing though today, in making that the bold move right

of creating 10 golden rules as the title of the speech, and

then it created a company that day. How did that transform into

what you're doing today? All these years later, we

people really didn't understand, like you're only doing digital,

but I knew what I was trying to hire at E diets. We wanted

someone who under. Strategy. And I had the Coca Cola, the sprint.

You had the background there from your from

your previous jobs, that makes sense,

and the technology, and obviously it

knew how to drive traffic to a website and convert traffic to

paying customers in the very early days. So I had what I was

looking for. I created that agency, and we grew very

steadily, doubling every year, and very, very successful, until

maybe six or seven years ago, when all of a sudden, there was

not all of a sudden, but in 15 years, there was a lot of

competition, and there was a lot of people who did what we did.

So it

started as the lone wolf, right? Yeah. Yeah, truly

building, like highway 66 cross United like, I like that. You

were creating the path, and it was, oh, wow, this is good. We

got to get into it. And it becomes crowded. And by the way,

I'm just going to chime in here, coming from being a printer 20

years ago and being in a very crowded industry, moving into

consulting and coaching, and that was a very nobody knew it.

And now can be people say, Well, it's pretty crowded. Being

crowded never, ever scares me. It just helps us niche focus and

do our best, and there's enough business for all. So you were

noticing a lot of people were jumping on your road.

I always joke like walking a Starbucks, and

we'd see two kids crowd around a Mac and they had a social media

agency, and literally, that's anywhere in the country. So we

decided to niche down even further. We've looked at our

business and we had about 40% of our business was lawyers. We'd

worked with lawyers for 17 or 18 years, and about 40% of our

business was seminar and event companies. And the lawyers were

much better clients. First of all, they're business people,

and second of all, they're really good at paying their

bills. And the seminar and event guys in town and paying the

bills was optional. They just changed their name and come back

to town five years later. So we decided to go all in with

lawyers about six years ago, and it's been great. We've tripled

the company in that time.

So when I also I work, I don't work exclusively

in the legal field, but I have probably about 70% of my clients

are in the legal field. Okay, I will say it is lawyers are

great. They understand the importance of making decisions

and executing because they unders. It's part of their

process and part of their training when you work with law

firms. Now, are there specific niches now, you know, because

we're talking about niching down, niching down and niching

down. So I always have to ask, as you have niched into the

legal field and into working with law firms, is there any

further niching or what have you learned?

Well, we have some great clients in other

practice areas, and we love it for the variety, but probably

70% of our business is personal injury. I mean, let's face it,

the guys on TV and with the billboards, they have the

incentive to spend the money online, and those are our

biggest clients.

It's It's fascinating. I always say I was

driving from a client. So for those listeners who don't know

I'm in the New York area, or new to her success story. I'm in the

New York area. So for those local in the New York area, I

was driving up the Jersey Turnpike from a client. And

speaking of billboards and personal injury, right? You can

almost drive off the road and have a personal injury because

of the amount of billboards related to personal injury. So

what do you see different anything going on in the

that the legal profession on people in investing in digital

marketing need to know?

Well, I think it's the same in every industry,

and it's how AI is affecting the business. But the one thing that

I've been spending a lot of time trying to figure out in the last

six months or so, Google is now showing AI overviews, which are

AI search results. It's like a chat GPT where Google's

compiling the answer, and so you don't necessarily have to go to

a website to find the answer. So we're in the business of getting

people to go to our clients websites, and this is a really

significant impact on the industry. Now so far, the good

news is that there's about 30% of the searches now where Google

will show an AI overview, and frankly, is about 10% of search

that's going directly to chat GPT or another LLM, large

language model. So it's definitely upsetting the apple

cart. But the good news is that most of those searches are what

we call top of the funnel, when someone just starts doing the

research. So if you have a car accident, your first search

might be, do I need a lawyer for a car accident? And those. Kind

of searches, generally didn't lead to a conversion to a client

signing up because they're just doing initial research, but

there is an opportunity to capture those, and we've

developed some methodologies to come up in those AI overviews

results, because even Google on their AI results and chat. GPT

now show links to websites and they reference their homework, I

say, where they show the link to the websites they use to compile

the answer. So the way we're capitalizing on that is we're

answering a lot of questions in our SEO. Our lawyers are

answering questions on video. We're answering questions and

blog posts, and we're getting those answers in the form of

blogs, YouTube videos to come up in the search results, and

people will go to the web page watch the video to help answer

the question. So we are generating a lot of traffic in

this new change, but it's definitely the wild west of

search, and I've heard a quote the other day. I think it was

Sundar Pichai, who's the Google CEO, right? He said that AI is

really like electricity in terms of a major change in society.

But think of that. He didn't say it's like the internet. He said

it's like electricity, the wheel, the industrial

revolution, electricity and AI like a much bigger deal than

Internet. So it's very, very significant how it's going to

impact our lives going forward.

You know, I happen to agree, and I think it's a

matter of all of us learning how to use AI and how AI can be an

asset and not a hindrance, because if we shy away, we're

going to be left behind and and that's important. It's

important. I remember every time like you had the onset of

digital marketing, you jumped in early, right there, there is,

there was digital printing. There was right there was the

onset, the change from back in the day, from mechanicals to

doing things on the computer and creating artwork on the

computer. We have there's always been this evolution. And my true

belief is, lean in and learn

exactly, maybe 80 and you're going to the office

just to keep yourself occupied. Maybe you don't need to learn AI

now. You don't need to become an AI company overnight, but I

would encourage you do some experimenting. You gotta play

around with chat, GPT and AI overviews and some of the legal

products that deliver AI solutions to write demand

letters for you, do research for you. So it's inherent upon all

of us to learn a little bit and not be a Luddite and reject the

technology.

I happen to agree with you. Now, let me ask you

this in moving jumping forward. Okay, we're about halfway

through the year now that we're doing this legal research

series. What are one or two things listeners can do today

that we should be learning or asking questions about, and

sometimes it's gee, if I should only ask this, think about the

information I'll get when I as I delve in for those answers,

whether it be AI or wherever.

I guess, the two answers that come to mind I

touched on a minute ago is everybody should be answering

questions, and the simplest form of that is just keep a list on

your desk. And every time a client asks you a question or a

prospect, write it down and then answer it in the form of a blog

post, or even better, as I said, do a video and like our YouTube

channel is up over a million views now, so congratulations.

It's incredibly valuable to our business now. It's a great asset

that sends us opportunities every single day answer

questions in the form of a video or a blog post, or even if

you're in B to B, like yourself and myself, post it on LinkedIn

as a LinkedIn article. And then I use the term cascade content.

So like a river goes over a waterfall and forms smaller

waterfalls and tributaries and little pools of water. It's

called cascading take that video or that blog post, hire a twin

turn, which is a Twitter intern, and you can get young folks who

are looking to build their portfolio, or just kids looking

for part time work and for 50 or 100 bucks a month. They'll take

that weekly answer and they'll put it for you on Facebook, on

LinkedIn, on Twitter, on Instagram, so you don't have to

do the cascading, and you don't have to know which side the size

the image should be on Facebook and Instagram. But find someone

like a journalism student or someone who could do that for

you. But all you have to do, in a very simple way, is answer one

question a week. The second thing. Tip I'll give you is a

very advanced chat GPT strategy that I've been using that's

really fantastic. And it

starts to write it down. Yeah, I get this

recording. I get the writer downer. Okay,

it starts with the acronym CR, I T. And

basically what you're going to do is give chat GPT, or any of

the tools you could use, Google's Gemini or perplexity,

or any of the tools. And C stands for context. R stands for

role, I stands for interview, and T stands for task. So I'll

give you an example. We run on the Eos operating system, and I

am hiring, just hired, fortunately, a new integrator in

the Eos. So in Eos, you have a visionary.

I was going to say, can you can? So in the big

picture, right? We have visionaries, right, who come up

with all these great ideas, and then we have implementers who

start knocking them off.

So I'm hiring this very important position,

like the Chief Operating Officer of my company. And I had a

number of great candidates, and so I asked myself, How can ai do

this? How can it help me make the decision? And that's another

great question. Always ask yourself, can ai do this? Can I

save time? Can I get a first draft? And it's amazing for

everything I do now. So for this task, I had a number of tools

built. I had interviewed all these candidates, and I'd

recorded it using a tool called Fathom AI. We're recording today

on Fathom AI, and it gives you a summary of the conversation, a

transcription, the next steps, the key takeaways. So I used

Fathom AI, Fathom AI recording. We also use predictive index,

which is a hiring tool, and hiring tool pi. Love it.

It could be pi. Could be a COVID. There's,

there's a lot of great hiring people love them.

So I had a PI for my five top candidates. I had a

transcription of the interview, and the final tool I used is a

tool called Crystal nose, which uses AI to create a DISC profile

from the person's LinkedIn and other online tools. So I had a

transcription of an interview, a PI and a DISC profile which

matched the candidates with my DISC profile. And so I gave chat

GPT of C, R, i, t, context, role, interview task. I said,

the context is, I'm hiring an integrator. And I uploaded the

job description of the integrator, and I explained that

this is part of traction and this great book by Gina Whitman.

And I said your role is, you're a hiring consultant. You're one

of the top hiring consultants in the entire world, and you have

expertise in disc profiles and predictive index, and you're

going to help me find the right match for my personality and

this role and the 10 golden rules company, and it's built a

lot of knowledge about Jay Berkowitz in the 10 golden rules

company, because I've been using the 4.0 the paid version of chat

GPT, we do as well. I said interview me. Ask me up to five

clarifying questions before you complete your task. And the

questions are fantastic. Do you want this person for a short

period of time, or do you want them to be a long term member of

your team in a really? Is it a

freelance gig? Is it a short term kid? Is it a

hybrid, right? Or, or is it a long term commitment?

And chat GPT asked me that question because I

asked it to interview me to clarify. And finally, the task

was to rate the candidates by the criteria outlined in the job

interview. And the results were phenomenal. Take your breath

away. I want to read this. Yeah, I'll happily share it with you.

So they ranked the candidates in order, and then they had the

five or six bullet points from the job interview and experience

with Eos, because some of the candidates were long time EOS.

Some of them had just read the book traction. And it ranked the

criteria, five or six criteria, and it ranked each of the

candidates. Said this candidate would be the best for their Eos,

this candidate would be the best for financial stuff, which I

said, that this person is going to be my new profit guru, big

partner. And so it was really a fantastic tool to help clarify

my thoughts. It was like common sense, but it was like took away

the agony of thinking about it. Was like, okay, yeah, that's

right, that's right. Okay, that's person be good for this.

And so we got the candidate, we got the candidate that I chose,

and that my team chose, and that chat GPT selected as the best

for the job.

So you took my next question is, so did your opinion

and the team's opinion and chat GPT, were they all aligned?

Yeah, pretty much, pretty much a couple of my

team members had slightly differing views, but we pretty

much had the top two or top three candidates out of the top

five, one of the candidates would be great, but didn't have

a lot of pure EOS experience. So so. Of those things were pretty

straightforward, pretty much. It verified my gut feeling.

I love it. Let me ask you this before we close.

You've been running a company for a long time. You've been in

the industry in a long time. What has surprised you, as a

leader of 10 golden rules,

I think a couple things right out of the gate.

What surprised me was that running a business is very

different than being an expert at something. And I read that

email and touche and E Myth really a great book, by the way,

the entrepreneurship lucky to get that in my first one or two

years of business. But essentially, what that book

explains is that, like Annie, there was this case study of

Annie's pie shop. And I don't think it's Annie, but a young

woman who aunt taught her to make these unbelievable pies,

and she got so busy, then she had no systems, and then the

whole people were lined up at the door, then quality fell

apart. So it talks about building systems, but what it

explains is that Annie didn't know anything about standard

operating procedures, training, hiring, accounting, marketing,

finance, right? But Annie made great pies, so I think that was

a learning on the job. The other thing is, I thought that

entrepreneurs were a type of person, but I've really come to

believe that you can learn to entrepreneur. And I say

entrepreneur is a verb. Networking is definitely you're

not a great networker until you learn, and you can learn to be a

great network you can. Ivy and I met through a networking group

that I created for a very sophisticated B to B networking

purposes. And all of these things have been learned in the

23 years that we've had the business,

I happen to love that, and I have to give you a

shout out, because of that network working group was one of

the things that inspired me to do this series, because I'm

always meeting so interesting. We were showing up to the group.

But the whole idea networking is doing that follow up and getting

to know people. And I was having such great conversations with

the people I was getting to know. And I'm like, I want to

interview all these people on the podcast. And then I was

like, ding, ding, ding.

Podcast Series, yeah. And here's the pro tip,

just so we don't talk around it to people. Basically, we created

a group of 100 it's now like 112 other folks who only sell to or

specialize in working with lawyers, right? Based on the

principle that if I spend my time networking with a lawyer, I

could get one sale, but if I network with Ivy, who has 100 or

200 clients, she could recommend me to five or 10 or 20 attorneys

who need a new digital agency. So we've formed this group, and

it's pretty simple. We just meet once a month by zoom, and then

at all the conferences, we host an event or breakfast, or we all

just get together with each other, and we're helping each

other get business. We're doing podcasts with each other, and

it's really only maybe a year old, but it's been fantastic. A

number of the folks came to our conference, TJR live and were

speakers, and Ivy had a power table, and so it's really a

tremendous advanced networking tip that I'll share with you

all.

And I love that. It's surround yourself with not

just don't just focus or panic about it. Have to be with people

to where I'm going to get clients. I have to network. I'm

going to get clients, surround yourself and network with peers

and colleagues that have their clients or your clients. It's

that circle of influence with COI, circle of influence. And

think about it, and leverage that time together and anything

enjoy the getting to know people. And that's where I'm

going to add I don't network with groups that I don't like

the people. I wouldn't be stay in Jay's group, right? I

wouldn't have kept getting involved in doing more and more

if I didn't say, Hey, I'm really loving having these

conversations, it's really I'd work and network with people I

adore, respect and feel have great integrity in business and

in life. And you'll see how aligned you get, and that's how

you truly, truly leverage your expertise.

And here's an extension of what Ivy suggested,

because you've heard us both talk about the power of niching

down. And if you're thinking of picking a niche, which I'd

highly recommend, make sure you spend some time with the folks

in the niche. And that's I'm in a mastermind with 300 other

agencies, and we all focus on only one niche. And when the

younger folks in a group are trying to pick a niche. I say,

go to the conference, spend three days with these guys,

because we have very different guys in our group. We have guys

who wear ball caps and shorts to the meeting, and then there's

three or four of us who wear a suit jacket, business jacket.

And guess what? The three or four guys who wear business

jackets, we all hang out with lawyers all the time. Niche as

lawyers, or there's another guy who only does very high end

accountants. All his clients are accountants. But make sure that

if you're more of the suit jacket guy, you don't want to

make plumbing as your niche, and you're going to be spending like

all your time talking to plumbers. And when you go to a

conference, you're surrounded by 400 plumbers. Make sure you're

like ivy said you like hanging around with the folks that

you're going to be spending your next five or 10 years with,

every waking moment,

I'll say it somewhat succinctly, be with your people,

the people who work for you, the people you feel comfortable

with, the people you align with, the people you have common

values with comment other things, be with your people, and

they say you'll never work another day in your life,

because you'd be doing what you enjoy with the people you enjoy.

And that goes for your clients and your staff and

your friends. I think Tony Robbins line is you can't pick

your family, so you got to make do with your family, but pick

folks who are going to make your life better, make you happy and

teach you great things,

absolutely so. Jay Berkowitz, how can our listeners

learn more about you and 10 golden rules?

Well, if you like this kind of education and some

of these theories, most of them I probably learned from my

podcast guests like ivy, who's been a podcast guest on the 10

golden rules of internet marketing for law firms podcast.

And I really encourage you to go to our YouTube channel, and we

have over a million views on our YouTube channel, and we have all

kinds of great content about lawyer marketing. So SEO for

lawyers and PPC for lawyers and local service ad strategies, but

we also have great content about EOS and finances and YouTube

strategies and all kinds of things that aren't directly for

lawyers, rain, making, networking. So that's just go to

YouTube and search for 10 golden rules. And of course, if we can

help you with your marketing, we're at 10 Golden rules.com and

I'm Jay Berkowitz on all the social media.

I love it, Jay. Thank you so much for joining me

here today on her success story.

Thank you so much, Ivy. My pleasure and

listeners,

this is what I say at this point in the show. Take

a deep breath. Jay and I spoke about a lot of things. There was

a lot of content that was delivered today. Identify one

thing, one thing that resonates with you. Jot it down somewhere.

It could be, if you're traditional, a piece of paper.

It could be your phone. It does not matter, okay, just jot it

down and then make that decision of what's the one action you're

going to take? You could come back and listen again and again

and again to all the her success story podcasts, or check both of

our websites out. But most importantly, right now, by

showing up today, identify one thing that resonated with you

and then identify an action you're going to take that is our

gift to you, and let us know how it goes. Hit subscribe and share

this forward if this was helpful to you. Thank you for joining me

today on her success story and see you next time you.