David Klein: 00:00:00

What we're seeing is, because those are big budgets, and they're running enormous TV schedules, they have tons and tons of ads running. But the consumers 50% of their consumers are no longer they can't see their ads, because they don't have a cable subscription. And they don't have a, you know, the satellite subscription. So in order to reach those consumers and get that message out there, you have to go into the streaming world.

IMFLF Intro: 00:00:30

Welcome to the 10 Golden Rules of internet marketing for law firms podcast, featuring the latest strategies and techniques to drive traffic to your website and convert that traffic into clients. Now, here's the founder and CEO of 10. Golden Rules, Jay Berkowitz.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:00:53

Well, good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Whatever time you're listening to this podcast, welcome to the 10 Golden Rules of internet marketing for law firms. Got a great guest today, David Klein. And we're, I guess, a couple of weeks after tgr live growth strategies for law firms, our live event, we did record video and but people are asking us, can they get the audio and video, and we should have that edited up in the next couple of weeks. So stay tuned for that. If you enjoy these webinars, these podcasts, these interviews, I'd really appreciate if you give us a like and a follow a subscribe on YouTube, a five star rating on iTunes that really helps us get great guests. If people see we have lots of subscribers. Anyways, without further ado, welcome David Klein from ConsulTV to the 10 Golden Rules podcast.

David Klein: 00:01:46

Thank you for having me. Okay.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:01:48

So today we're going to unravel one of the great mysteries of legal marketing and marketing. And it's called Ott, which is confusing enough. I like to just call it digital TV. And what we're talking about today, David's a real expert, and his company provides a service is the TV commercials, that stream as opposed to run on, you know, the three networks like old TV, if you go way back ran on CBS, NBC, and ABC. And then as cable came into the mix, you could run TV ads, through cable, and you can be a little bit more targeted. Like in the in the grand old days, if you ran an ad, you had to target all of I think all of the United States, right? And some of it leaked into Canada, I grew up in Canada watching the big three networks. And now you can be very, very precise in your targeting. You can target people who actually went to certain websites, and you can target people in very specific communities. I know there's a local real estate agent, his ads always come up when I'm streaming my sports games on my ESPN app. So this is a very new opportunity for marketing. I say new people have been doing it for four or five years now. But it now seems to really have been crossing the threshold. So anyways, I'll let David introduce himself first, David, you know, why don't you start a little bit at the beginning. Tell us a little bit about your background and how you became an expert in OTT and digital TV. I'm

David Klein: 00:03:18

happy to do it. So I've been in the advertising world for about over 20 years, I started with a little local magazine selling print advertising. And then from there, we built a website had an event business. And so I really got interested in digital marketing, spent many, many years doing PPC, SEO and in your world Jay and working with clients and had a lot of legal clients back then helping them with their paid search advertising, and then websites etc. And so that that was my career path for many years. And about three and a half years ago, I had a good friend that I knew from my PPC days was due in this company ConsulTV and they weren't growing. And I decided to join forces with him. And so I was familiar with programmatic placement. I've been doing a lot of programmatic placement and the geofencing and the display arena, that was something that was that was a burgeoning industry and even three and a half years ago, it's hard to believe it's a short period of time, but the changes in this industry have just been monumental. And you're correct. It really is at a tipping point. But that's been my history. So 20 plus years of advertising and a lot of work in PPC websites. So I understand that space. I've been out of it for a few years, and now really immersed and helping legal advertisers, essentially as this this burgeoning opportunity is this, this change of how to distribute those ads is taking place, helping them make that transition so that their law firms continue to prosper. And

Jay Berkowitz: 00:04:52

it's a family affair like you guys are a power media couple. I got to meet your lovely wife in Costa Rica when we were at a loop Legal conference and she's also in media media sales, right?

David Klein: 00:05:04

She is and that's very kind and it's great because we we love to talk shop and she's been she's actually sold TV for years and years for the local NBC affiliate here in Portland Oregon. And and we are that's cool off teller. You said that that's current check. Do

Jay Berkowitz: 00:05:19

you guys track who's who's having a better quarter and quota?

David Klein: 00:05:25

Absolutely not. That's hard though. My friend. Yeah, we

Jay Berkowitz: 00:05:29

won't be going there. Right. Someone tells me I wouldn't want to compete with her. All right. So, you know, let's try and unravel this mystery, shall we? So, here's, here's my personal take. I'm from Canada. I'm from Winnipeg, Canada. And of course, I watch my Winnipeg Jets. Now, I live in Florida, which is football country. And there's not a lot of coverage for the Winnipeg Jets. So I guess for three or four years now, ESPN and the NHL have had a deal. And I can stream on the ESPN app and see my beloved, but yet heartbreaking Winnipeg Jets. So we just got knocked out of the playoffs. And for me, this has been an interesting evolution, because, you know, watching the same media property that comes in from another market. And then the ability for the advertisers to target target me here in Florida. When when I started this, you know, watching this, this tool, this this, this media source, there was maybe one commercial in a three hour hockey game. And I would see the ESPN promo for their 30 on 30, about 50 times in every game and it drove me crazy. And I got I could sing the song for you. I won't. And then now here we are three or four years later, and it's not perfect. But I would say that there's about 30 commercials in a game. And I'm just guessing on the number you could probably tell me and about 20 or 15 to 20 episodes of the exact same 30 on 30. promos five, ESPN should definitely use that that time more effectively. But what I've seen is an evolution. So now like I say, I'll see the local real real estate guy, I'll see the local local car dealerships. And you know, they have the ability to target me very precisely. And sometimes even those ads that we all think are kind of creepy. We're the what we call retargeting in the industry, where if I went to a website, I'll see an ad for that exact website. So talk to us a little bit about the technology. And if you can try and differentiate OTT and the fixed TV versus the streaming that you get on your phone.

David Klein: 00:07:44

Got it? So yeah, well, let's start with some definitions. Je because whoever however OTT stuck in the industry, I just want to strangle that person, metaphorically, because it's just, it doesn't make a lot of Ott, by the way stands for over the top. And at the very beginning of streaming TV, somebody in the TV world said, Well, we're going to have this streaming distribution over the top of our traditional distribution of through the affiliates. So that's where OTT comes up. So that's the umbrella that covers really any any content that served through the internet. But it's very confusing. So under that umbrella of Ott, the sooner

Jay Berkowitz: 00:08:24

OTT goes away as a term.

David Klein: 00:08:28

We ought to start a movement to streaming

Jay Berkowitz: 00:08:31

TV, it starts here today, on the rules podcast, anyone says OTT. So hey, I'm only going to talk to you today about digital streaming TV. Yeah, that's right. Because you know, as a consumer, as an advertiser, you don't really care if someone has a fixed TV on their wall, and they're watching YouTube, or Hulu, or if they're holding it in their hand. Or, you know, by the way, a lot of times my phone now is capable of streaming to the TV on the wall. So to me as a consumer, it's just ads and content. And I don't care what you call it. Yeah, but But here's

David Klein: 00:09:06

what so that now this is where we start peeling back some of the layers is that there certainly is the capability of serving ads to just connected TV. So you can tell the system, we don't want to be on phones, we just want to be on your Smart TV on your wall. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being on the phones, because as a matter of fact, then you can also tell the system, okay, we want to be on Smart TV, and we want to also be on desktop and mobile phones. So the whole point of that is that from a distribution standpoint and device, there is the capability of deciding what percentage of your impressions you want to have on the individual device and what we what we see Jay by the way, is that on the on the wall TV, those impressions are a little bit more effective for one because people typically are, they're watching their TV, they're sitting on their couch, they're engaged you have A factor where there's, there's more likely somebody is going to be sitting next to you on the couch, as opposed to if you're watching your phone, it's just going to be one impression. So I get we're getting a little bit in the weeds. But the point is what what streaming what this ecosystem allows us to do is choose the device. But what you are sharing on ESPN is really that's, that's a really great indication of how this whole system is changing, because those are publisher decisions. So what was happening is that ESPN was deciding, you know what, we're not really making our inventory available programmatically. That's why you were getting those overlooked in 30 for 30, promos over and over and over because they made a conscious decision to not make that that space available. Now. They're making some of that space available. So what's happening now is that we're a demand side platform. So we represent the advertisers, we take their ads, and we put them into the system. And the publishers, then they decide, okay, how much of our inventory do we want to make available programmatically, because they want to sell it directly, because that's how they're going to get the highest rate is when then they can go to Procter and Gamble and Ford, and say, you buy these spots, and they're going to charge the highest rate. And then in the middle, there's exchanges. So the exchange is sort out all the what's going back and forth between the demand side and publisher side. And what we're seeing is because the streaming audience now is swelling, by a by all accounts larger than the traditional that now these publishers are starting to say, we can't sell all this inventory, we're going to make more of it available programmatically.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:11:37

Fantastic. So make it real now, you know, bring it down. I'm a personal injury law firm or a family attorney or, you know, a bankruptcy lawyer. How can I use this? Do I need to be a TV advertiser? Do I need a fancy, you know, 50 or $100,000? Production TV commercial?

David Klein: 00:11:56

You know, the short answer is no. But like everything else in this world, it's it's a complex world. So the answer to that is, the content matters. And we had some really great conversations at your conference last week about it does matter what what is your brand, what is your differentiator is as a law firm, so I'm just going to use it. I know a lot of law firms really love sports, and they get involved in sports, marketing and sponsoring the local team, whatever that is. And if that's the case, then this is where being able to serve these ads and, and leveraging that, that brand lift. And that awareness lift is really, really important. So the answer is that this is still TV, like we're not reinventing the wheel. And I would say this, Jay is Yeah, I know, you're you're an expert in the digital world. You know, when people left the Yellow Pages to PPC, that was a complete paradigm shift, because the technology was different than the consumer experience was completely different. In this case, it's still what's the same as it's still 32nd spot. So it's still TV, but just the way it's distributed, and the targeting behind that distribution is enormously different. So the answer to the question is I would always work with law firms is that I asked them, you know, if they're doing TV, that's, that's, we're really the, the consumers are changing. So the law firms need to change and put that message in front of the eyeballs where their consumers are, which their potential clients are, which now is shifting more towards streaming.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:13:34

And what so what kind of creative works the best?

David Klein: 00:13:41

So there's a couple of best practices I would always recommend. So this is still this isn't a very bottom of the funnel. So it's not necessarily a direct response, like say a paid paid search ad but having your URL or having your website on the Add for update the entirety of the Add QR codes are are just, they're an oldie but a goodie. But they're making a comeback. And I would just strongly recommend having a QR code. If you're doing a newsletter, what to do in an accident, kind of a newsletter, whatever your your current system is. That's great. And then of course, the phone number because even though what

Jay Berkowitz: 00:14:17

QR codes you again, dummy this down? Sure. So a

David Klein: 00:14:21

QR code is that that goofy looking box with the dots on it. And so when you put that QR code on your your TV add on your streaming TV ad, by the way, it's non skippable, so people have to watch the ad and other kind of a plus of streaming TV, but they can pause it. Then they take a picture with their phone. And that QR code sends them directly to whatever page you want them to go. So it could be to your homepage. It could be to sign up for our newsletter. I have clients that do a they have like a little one page white paper what to do in an accident. So they get the QR code. You have to give your name and your email address and then Boom, they send you a what to do if you're in an accident that you can save on your phone. So, it what it does is it creates engagement, and it helps build an audience list. And it's effective. People are very familiar, they're very comfortable with QR codes. And that's a best practice.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:15:20

That's fantastic. And I've had a lot of success with QR codes in my presentations. And, you know, it's like an Anon, I gotta have it every time now I've realized it's so beneficial. And, you know, this is one of my trick questions. And if you're a smart guy, so I don't feel bad throwing the throwing the curveball at you. Sure. No, we, you know, I've always used this question as sort of like a challenging question for some of my, my smartest friends in the industry. You know, what? And typically, it's what should be on the landing page. But for you, what should be in the commercial? Should we show a car? Correct? Let's assume we're talking about a local personal injury lawyer. Should we show a car accident? Should we show the lawyer in court fighting on behalf of the client? Should we show the lawyer fighting with the insurance company? Should we show a big check? What's going to get the best results?

David Klein: 00:16:12

So I think that the big and that is a great question. And it's a it's a complex one. So the first thing I'd say is, be true to your brand. So don't be consistent and true to your brand. Ding, ding, ding,

Jay Berkowitz: 00:16:24

ding, ding. By the way, that is the right answer. I'll let you answer. But, you know, I've asked this question for many years. And I have found that the right answer is you got to find out what you stand for. And you got to talk about what you stand for. Because actually, people don't want to see car accidents, and they don't want to go to court. But I'll let you answer. So be true to your brand.

David Klein: 00:16:44

Be true to your brand, and find out what that is what is your unique position, whether you're local, etc. But I do believe this, and I've heard this from a couple of different sources is that a lot of times the attorneys, they look around at their market, and they're really competitive with everybody else in the market. But remember, they're their biggest competitor is the insurance companies. And you look at all the advertising that progressive and Allstate GEICO does, why do they do that? Because when they get in an accident, people say, well, the gecko isn't going to screw me over. I mean, that's one of the strategies. That's why they spend hundreds of millions of dollars. So the point of all that is, I think, part of that messaging, is that a, that we're here that it's the insurance companies, I would just say that's a really consistent message. Because Because what happens is, somebody gets in and x and let's say, it's not a traumatic accident, because there's a lot more non traumatic accidents, when they get in a fight with when when they get the offer from their insurance company. And it's a fraction of what they, they thought they need, what they what's fair, you know, then they go, oh, man, now I'm gonna go and get an attorney to help me. So

Jay Berkowitz: 00:17:57

one of the attorneys used to always think to me, what's that? Nationwide, it's not on your side. That's

David Klein: 00:18:04

so I mean, and nationwide spends how much money saying Nationwide is on your side. So a true to your brand, and then be just keep it in the back. If

Jay Berkowitz: 00:18:15

you're, the attorney that cares if you're the family, lawyers, if you're the firm that fights to get you the biggest settlement. If you're the firm that fights the insurance company, figure out your brand message and carry that brand message through credo, and

David Klein: 00:18:29

I think an underlying current is is, is get the messaging out that you need me because you're going to be better off like than dealing with the insurance company yourself. Like that is a I think regardless of what your brand is having part of your messaging, realizing your biggest competitor is, is the is the emo, the gecko. Jake from State Farm, I mean, those those are your competitors as well. And I think sometimes the attorneys as they're formulating their message, they know that I'm not this isn't profound, but but I think they forget that when they're formulating their message, so it doesn't have to be overt, but just making that part of of the message to those folks out there watching the commercials.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:19:14

Fantastic. And so, you know, I again, I grew up in the old days of TV, and we you know, is minimum $100,000 To make a TV commercial. And, you know, you the TV stations would patch together some stuff for less. But, you know, really, you know, I worked for Coca Cola, McDonald's, and, you know, we would make commercials that would stand the test of time and they would stand out for a year and we do research and the whole deal. You know, how much can you make a TV commercial today that can have

David Klein: 00:19:43

an effective result? Yeah, so And the nice thing and we could really dive into a ton of targeting options, but but streaming but connected TV streaming TV, offers a wide range of budgets, targeting options, both in terms of geography See, and also the database that you can use. If you have Spanish speaking person,

Jay Berkowitz: 00:20:04

I'm talking about the creative like, running, this is running a commercial, right? It's a 32nd 60 commercial, and it's running up against the nationwide, like, nationwide could be the spot before you. So, you know, they spent a gazillion dollars and they got, you know, a celebrity and, you know, rock band, and they got the answer the, you know, the rock band, what are you talking about? Or the Geico you know, and that now I gotta run a commercial, it's gonna convince people like, hey, you know, these guys aren't on your side. And you should call me because I'm gonna fight the insurance company. So the creatives got to stand out? Yes. Does it cost to make a TV commercial? And how do you do that? Like, does ConsulTV make to TV commercials?

David Klein: 00:20:52

The answer is no. So we are not a creative agency. So we're a demand side platform. Our job is to distribute that commercial that you make, and, and look, there's there's really, there's a lot of great agencies out there that create TV commercials. I've seen budgets that are in the mid, you know, I'm just going to give a really wide range of three to 5000. Up to I mean, I've seen people spend $50,000, on commercial shoots, that what they're shooting commercials for the next couple of years. So we're not

Jay Berkowitz: 00:21:25

really you can start as small as three to 5000 for media.

David Klein: 00:21:29

i Yes. I think that that that is something that that would work. Yeah.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:21:34

Fantastic. And obviously, that's not for New York City. But, you know, for smaller markets and targeting a tight Geo.

David Klein: 00:21:41

You can go through and I'm talking about the commercial that commercial production not not commercial production.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:21:47

Okay. Yeah. What's so three to 5000 for a decent commercial. And, you know, the biggest change, of course, is your the iPhone is much better than the, you know, cameras that used to shoot like the epic Hollywood movies. So the iPhone has incredible capability. And obviously, you know, a guy with a decent camera can do a beautiful, HD commercial. And that's why three 5000. Now, obviously, you need an idea, you got to be on brand, you got to have a message, gotta have a call to action, and probably include include the QR code. So now we got our creative, how much what's the basic media start point for the cost of the airing the ads?

David Klein: 00:22:28

Yeah. And so that, then that's where I was thinking you were asking earlier. So sorry, I got a little while. didn't understand the question. So again, if there's wide range Jaipur, just to give you a straight answer if you're in a mid market, so if you're in a 25 to 100, or 150, DMA level market, and TV buyers are certainly will understand that what does

Jay Berkowitz: 00:22:51

that mean? We've got a client in Carmel, Indiana, and Oklahoma City.

David Klein: 00:22:55

Got it. So those are the myths. And if you look at the size of your TV market, those are all ranked. So Carmel, Indiana and Oklahoma City are going to be mid markets they're going to be Yeah, yeah. So they're going to end and a top market is going to be a Miami, Houston, LA, New York, etc. So Chicago, basically where the where the proteins are going to be your bigger markets. And then and then there's a ton of mid market. So for mid markets, we see folks successful and that the 10 to $20,000 range. Now certainly people spend a lot more than that. And that's

Jay Berkowitz: 00:23:32

10 to 20,000 a month. Yes, sir. 10 to 20,000 a month. Okay. Yeah.

David Klein: 00:23:37

And then in the major metros, we see people successful in the 20 to 30,000. But But Jay here, here's where that ultimately I think the the, the most important part of this is, is a change of viewership just thinking about the consumer. And the reason I bring that up is that there, there are many law firms that their TV budgets, it's a big part of their marketing, and they spend 100 200 300,000 A month is their TV budget. And in those situations they're using that is a middle of the funnel, Brand Lift. And of course it plays into all the other marketing that they're doing sponsoring the proteins doing all the digital advertising, making sure their websites are great. So the point of all that is in those situations, what we're seeing is because those are big budgets, and they're running enormous TV schedules, they have tons and tons of ads running. But the consumers 50% of their consumers are no longer they can't see their ads, because they don't have a cable subscription and they don't have a you know, the satellite subscription. So in order to reach those consumers and get that message out there, you have to go into the streaming world.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:24:52

So you said you know 10 to 20,000 and midmarket you can be successful. Yes sir. How do you define success? So we talked Kimbo building the brand, or getting phone calls and actually converted, saying, Yeah, I

David Klein: 00:25:05

love that question. Because it's it's the latter like this is, you know, we love the awareness. We love the creative aspect of it. And it's great. We love helping attorneys get their message out. But ultimately I look at it is, is they're hiring me to help them grow their practice, like this is a growth strategy. This is a big investment for any of the law firms that we work at. So, again, what we see and what we know to be true is that when people this works, when people see those ads, we control the frequency. Most people are not in an auto accident, they're not fighting with their insurance company. So they don't need you. But when they need you, what do they do? They pick up their phone, and they Google, hopefully, they Google the name of the law firm. But a lot of times they might Google lawyer near me car, you know, whatever they Google. And ultimately, at that point, we want them to choose the attorneys that we're working with. So to answer your question, what I strongly recommend is like, let's, let's put a baseline in place and look at what are you what's your monthly leads, what's the monthly number of cases that you're booking, every law firm knows those numbers, because those are very, they're lagging indicators, but they they know them very, very well. And say, and again, in an ideal world, we're not going to make any other changes. Because this is not something where we can say, well, this added at three o'clock on Tuesday is the one that generated the call. Well, that's that's not the world that we live in. But what we can say is that now we're taking some some budget from TV, this happens quite a bit. We're putting it into streaming and we started with, you know, 100 leads coming in and 20 bookcases, I'm gonna say it for whatever the number is. And now 90 days later, we're at 150 leads coming in and 30 bookcases, and that ultimately, is where we partner with the agencies that we work with or for working directly. Usually, most of our business is through agencies. And that's ultimately the standard that we're held to.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:27:04

So I guess there's associated benefits with running these ads is what you're saying. So like, some people are going to scan the QR code, download the auto accident handbook, and eventually call the firm. And you can track it because they use the can have a tracking phone number in that auto accident handbook. But there's the other benefit. You said like some people are going to look up the name of the firm, they're going to go to their website, they're going to call the number on the website. It's not going to be directly associated with having seen that the Ott, or digital streaming TV app. I think a really good point, you've got to account for that balloon effect the umbrella effect of running ads.

David Klein: 00:27:46

Yes, sir. And then also, like I said earlier that this is still a 32nd TV spot. This is not a complete paradigm shift, like we discussed from the Yellow Pages to PPC. So the question is, how are you currently measuring your your TV ads, or you know, the lift that you're getting from TV, and they may say, you know, organic traffic on our website, or whatever the case is. So that's also the point of, of, you know, we want to measure we want to know that this is working. And, and having those types of conversations typically with the agency is very productive, because again, we're establishing that baseline. This is what the expectation is of, of how they're measuring the success of their current TV campaign. Now we're going to be more targeted, and we should see a lift and that's that's the goal that we're reaching or striving for. Yeah, we,

Jay Berkowitz: 00:28:38

we had a great case study at our teacher live conference, Josephine Roebuck from Jeff McDonald. So again, nice mid market example, Richmond, Virginia. They are a TV agency and Josephine presented case study, they took 25% of their TV budget and converted it to digital streaming OTT. And they saw that lift that you talked about. So they they definitely had some direct, trackable, traceable cases. But they just said everything else worked a little bit better. As a percentage, they see a very measurable, definable

David Klein: 00:29:16

increase. And that that's what my expectation is working with clients.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:29:21

Fantastic. Do you have like a case study like that? Do you want to share, you know, a market name of the attorney or not, you know, some kind of demonstrable result?

David Klein: 00:29:32

Yeah, and actually, so So what Josephine had shared that I've seen and there's one case study, and I've several examples, but one I've talked about. It's in North Carolina Market. And they had a very, very large law firm coming in. I'll share the law firm that came in was Morgan Morgan. I mean, they're a humongous the big TV advertisers a big dog so they were coming into one of the North Carolina markets. And the law firm said, look, we've been on TV They had a they had a good budget they were spending, you know, just probably about a million dollars a year. So that that's so they were it but But Morgan Morgan was going to outspend that we're not we can't compete with them. So what they did about three, two and a half years ago is they moved a significant portion of their traditional TV budget to streaming. Because and, and they they knew exactly the kid, the number of leads, in cases, very, very plugged in. And what they've seen in this has been very consistent over two years is that their budget didn't change. And this is really a success story. Because they didn't invest any more money. They just moved it into this targeted streaming world. And they've seen about a, you know, they went from about 80 cases a month booked to 120 125. And that's been very consistent now for really a year and a half, it took about six months. And then they saw that steady lift. And now. So they're spending the same amount of money with with essentially 30 40% more cases booked per month.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:31:09

Awesome. So it's really time where I think firms and we're starting with our clients need to dip their toe in the market and get an understanding of this new property. So just to segue a little bit you were at at our conference last week for folks who missed it. Go out and give us a little synopsis. What were some of the best things about tgr live?

David Klein: 00:31:33

Well, for you did a great. I mean, every speaker was great. I wrote. And I really mean that. I mean, I got something I took so many pages of notes. But I just have to say Justin, lovely, really, he what he talked about was AI and how he uses AI Justin

Jay Berkowitz: 00:31:49

lovelies, an attorney from South Carolina. Yes, eight or 10 different ways to use AI. Practically in his law firm, he's saving time saving money, increasing his efficiencies. Matter of fact, if you're on our YouTube channel, you can find a video where Justin demonstrates all these great time saving AI tools. So Justin lovely. But go ahead, go ahead.

David Klein: 00:32:13

Yeah, and the big learning with that Justin is that shared, it didn't occur to me how much AI helps other software talk to each other. So you're really leveraging, it's not just like going into chat GPT and saying help me write this email, it's going into other just, for example, the one that really blew my mind was taking a piece of long content 40 like a 40 minute podcast, putting it in that AI and then they will cut that up, I can't remember the name of the AI. Opus,

Jay Berkowitz: 00:32:48

his software was Opus. And it actually creates a number of short videos for you that you can use, you know, reels and tiktoks YouTube shorts, it's amazing. It's

David Klein: 00:33:00

and I can't wait to play around with it. So so that was a great learning and and the other the gentleman from England, he also really had a great point, tell me his name. Again,

Jay Berkowitz: 00:33:14

John McCarthy, the law firm profit coach, he was, he

David Klein: 00:33:18

was great. And he just brings up a great point is if you can just be a little bit better and a couple of things. So you're 1% better here. 1%. Better there over time. You can grow your firm 20 or 30, or whatever the case is. And to your point about the creative, it's a really good point is that if you can just put a QR code on your ad now a stat you know, the designers always freak out like they hate QR codes of the ad. But if it if it just helps them help get the word shows. No, no, you're not gonna win. But that was a really good learning is that if you can prove your targeting just 1% your creative 1% your intake 1% You know all of those things, it makes a big difference.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:34:00

Awesome. Thank you so so you'll be back. tgr live 2025

David Klein: 00:34:05

if you'll have me I would love to attend Jay it was it was a great, it was a great two and a half three days.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:34:12

We really enjoyed it. And it was a lot of work getting your one out and out the door. And now we're already starting planning for next year. So, you know, as I said before, you're a smart guy, someone whose opinion I value. And one of the things that I like to ask on this podcast is what are some tips you have for law firms? In your role as consultants, you know, I on my planning webinar every year, I show an example of one firm that gets about 5000 visitors to their website, and they sign about 80 cases. Another firm that gets 5000 visitors to the website, and they sign about 20 personal injury cases. You know, what's the big difference? You know, the one firm with 80 cases has like a 4.9 google stars. The firm with 20 cases has a 3.4 google stars. Well guess what? You know they Don't run their operation well. So as a consultant looking from the outside, and I see things like, You got to be able to answer the phone, you got to get the case into, you know, to an attorney quickly, you've got to get back to your customers, you've got to run efficiently, you've got to be financially prudent, you got to pay your bills, you know, all the things that make any business successful, are really critical for the law firms. So as a consultant, looking from the outside in, what are some of the tips you would say, help law firm succeed, you know, either specifically with with digital TV, or just in general?

David Klein: 00:35:32

Yeah. So I think the most important conversation that I have is, a lot of times I get asked, What's the best tactic? What's the best service that I should do so that I get the most return in the most cases? And I just responded that that's, that's not a good question. Yeah, that's a better question. And the question that, that I think we should discuss this, what's the best combination of tactics so that my law firm grows, and we're all constrained by finite time, budgets, etc. So as you look across the landscape of the wide range of options that law firms have to help market their services, TV, radio,

Jay Berkowitz: 00:36:12

billboards, Google,

David Klein: 00:36:14

and it's all you know, it's ever and it's, it's a circle, they're all connected, we know that decision making is 80%. subconscious. So that means getting that messaging out there, what happens, somebody picks up that phone, and they're ready to mate when they're in market for an attorney, being able to influence that 80% of subconscious decision making as much as possible, is incredibly important. Again, with the understanding, we're all constrained by time and, and money. So ultimately, as you work with your agency, and your consultants, is leverage their experience and knowledge. And as a law firm say, This is what our, our budget is both timewise, execution wise, budget wise, and saying, what what are the pieces? How much should we allocate to TV? How much should we allocate to our website? How much should we allocate to PPC rate, etc. And then, then your A B test, I think, a quarterly A B test, makes sense if you're constantly making changes every month, and you're not going to be able to really measure because you don't know what's changed, you may make the most sense. So I would say, what's the right combination? Is the question to ask. Establish that. And then work with your agency, you know, work with your marketing folks internally work with consultants that that, that execute that plan, and then every 90 days, looking at your TV budget, look at your PPC budget, do we need to do a refresh on the website? You know, those are the types of questions to be asking. And then each 90 days, pick one thing because guess what, no matter what you're doing, by my case study that I gave you the million dollar spender and his cases went up, guess what they they read on their targeting, that their budget has stayed pretty consistent over this whole time. But we certainly have made enormous changes to the targeting and some of the creative. So what's the right combination? AB test portal? Yeah, I love the

Jay Berkowitz: 00:38:12

concept of having a testing calendar. And that's part of our business model is, you know, each month we're going to test some variable and your business, you know, we're gonna do landing pages, or we're going to do a whole bunch of new keywords in a campaign or we're going to test some, you know, some new video content, you know, having that experimental component to, you know, five or 10% of your budget, testing something new is is really valuable. I mentioned this to you, when we were chatting, I mean, a CEO group we meet every month, and we're audited by the MBA class at the University, where we are meetings. And we always ask the speakers, you know, what, was there a change or pivot in your life? Where you made a career altering decision? And what did you learn from that that would be applicable to a young MBA or a young lawyer

David Klein: 00:39:02

just starting out? I think for me, you know, just I'm, I love reading and I, what I really like is reading about business people. So I've read lots and lots of biographies. And and I think, and I've read Walter Isaacson's biography of Steve Jobs twice, because I just love that book. It's been a few years, I might have to reread it. The one of the things about Steve Jobs, it really it's, it really is about the consumer is it's so easy, especially when you're a law firm, that you're investing enormous sums of money and your marketing program. And it's very easy and understandable that you want to, you're looking inward, and you want to make sure that you're representing your firm, but ultimately, it's you're you're trying to help you're trying to serve the community that you're practicing law. And so at every step along the way, and that's the approach that I always take is think about who are your potential clients in a law firm? How are they spending their time What do they care about? And then really reverse engineer from the consumer standpoint, and that's really been at the heart of Apple's success is that they, they've always said, We want to provide an incredible user experience, and to the same degree law firms if they can help if I can help them and guide them. And what is that? What is their consumer? What is their potential client look like? I think that's, that is sort of

Jay Berkowitz: 00:40:27

classic features versus benefits, right? Like, the law firm always wants to say we have 30 lawyers, and the consumer wants to say, you know, you're gonna fight the you're gonna fight the insurance.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:40:41

What's the benefit for the consumer? Good one. So now the quick ones, I call them the short snappers? Yep. Tell me about any apps or techniques used for personal productivity?

David Klein: 00:40:54

Yeah, and I mentioned this at the conference. And this, this helps me is I, you know, I use a CRM for my daily tasks, and I try to, you know, have 20 or 25 tasks, but But what I started doing a couple of years ago is, is there's a term for it, of organizing your calendar, not in tasks, but in times, so just putting on my calendar, like if I have time blocks, time blocks, thank you time block. So that that's been a really big help. Because if it's, my tasks might not get done in my CRM, but my time blocks, like 80 90% of the time I get those done, because I know those are mission critical tasks. So So time blocking on my calendar, and I use up Outlook calendar,

Jay Berkowitz: 00:41:41

we have a book we give all our new employees and we do a book club. Okay, well, yours we go through a chapter a week, a book called Eat That Frog by Brian Tracy. But you're, you're hinting at the core principle there, which is the mission critical tasks have to get done. And the concept in the book is if you do your top three tasks in the morning, first thing in the morning, you've already had a great day, because so many of us tend to procrastinate about the most important tasks. And if you don't, if you get them done first thing in the morning is like, Okay, I've already got, I've already won the day. You know, everything else from here is a bonus. You hinted on business books. Isaacson's Steve Jobs, couple other best business books.

David Klein: 00:42:23

So there's an oldie but a goodie. It's kind of funny to read it now, because it was so long ago, but Seth Godin wrote permission marketing, which is a really great as a seminal book. And it's funny because it was back in the day when Yahoo was the leading search engine. But the principle though, is absolutely the same as that if you can build enough, you know, know, like, and trust, if you can build enough trust and credibility, that somebody is willing to let you, for example, be a subscriber to your service and charge their credit card every month. But you have to build that trust. And so that's a really great book. And the other one I would really throw out that I refer, I think back to quite a bit is the E Myth by Michael Gerber. And he's written about a lot of follow ups to that. And you know, ultimately, just creating a consistent engine of a business. So you're providing a consistent certain level of service. And, and that the business itself is efficient, both for the business to run, and the problem that it solves for the consumer. Yeah,

Jay Berkowitz: 00:43:28

and I think I've personally learned an evolution of that, that it's like, you know, E Myth is about developing systems and your business. And he has an example of a pie shop. And this owner made phenomenal pies, and people were lined up out the door. And then when she hired someone she couldn't, didn't have a facility to teach her, you know, 10 years or 20 years of learning from her aunt who made made these incredible pies. And another one was a hotel that ran like clockwork, I remember them balls, yeah, manager and the manager had all these binders behind his desk. And he showed him the checklists for everything from checking someone into to cleaning the room and, and pre setting the coffee maker. So his coffee was was made in his room for him. But the evolution of that I found is that if you develop these systems, and your employees know exactly what to do every time and you can train and then retrain, if they make mistakes, there's a lot more job satisfaction and a lot more happiness in the workplace. Because the more chaos and disarray The more frustration employees have these days. So that's a lovely myth and, and the evolution Well, now we're using clickup, which is a software project management system. And we have really great checklists and click up and it's delivered in the software then people really use it because one thing I found with those binders behind behind the desk, nobody opened the binders now. Yeah, I've uh, blogs, podcasts. YouTubes anything you subscribe to when it hits your feed you always Open that right up.

David Klein: 00:45:00

You know, I It's the mismatch NBA, my podcast are for but but you know, but the tgr live podcast of course. But all kidding aside so I have since I've really just been immersed the last three years in the legal marketing space. I really liked your podcast Ken Hardison does a great podcast as well over at Panama. And and I scroll through, you know, a lot of the stuff that's maybe more operational. I may not listen to those podcasts, but the marketing related podcast, it's just invaluable to hear people on the front line, and particularly the challenges that law firms are experiencing. So I would say those are are a couple that that do come to mind. And I look for you're going to pick them up, right? Yes, sir.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:45:52

For those of you listening in real time, I think this podcast will be in early May, May 13, to 16th David and I'll be in New Orleans with Ken Hardison, all the great friends of Hilma personal injury lawyers Marketing and Management

David Klein: 00:46:07

Association. But that's right. It's something

Jay Berkowitz: 00:46:11

like that, but I hope to see all the neurons and if you're gonna be there, give a give David and I showed on social media. Well, we'll connect them. Dave and I are having dinner with a group of lawyers and we'd love to see and last one is really easy. Where can people get in touch with you? Sure.

David Klein: 00:46:25

So my name is David client k l e i n like like Calvin No relation. And my phone number is 704-564-8745 email address is D Klein, k l e i n at consult with a t and.tv. And so, TV, so Yes, sir.

Jay Berkowitz: 00:46:49

That's exactly what it sounds awesome. Well, David, thanks for doing this. I really enjoyed you know, sort of getting that mystery solved of OTT digital TV and spending some time with you. And we'll look forward to seeing you in New Orleans in a couple weeks. Likewise.

IMFLF Intro: 00:47:07

Thank you for listening to the 10 Golden Rules of internet marketing for law firms podcast. Please send questions and comments to podcast at 10 Golden rules.com. That is podcast at t e n Golden rules.com.