So creating high value content has been a great sort of foundation for us, and then we'll also market that in several different ways. We send emails. Hey, please come to our our monthly live streaming event. You know we're gonna we've got a great panel. We're gonna teach you all about the latest technologies in AI for lawyers, and then those panel partners will promote the event as well, and then we'll send a couple. When we send the emails in advance to the webinar, we post on our LinkedIn, my personal LinkedIn, company Facebook, Jay's Facebook, Twitter, company Twitter, and

and then after we hey, a lot of people said they missed the webinar, that they couldn't get the link to work. Here's a replay of the webinar, and then we take snippets from the webinar and put it in our social media. So that and a weekly podcast has been very, very powerful inbound marketing and thought leadership marketing for the firm.

Welcome to the 10 Golden Rules of Internet Marketing for Law Firms podcast, featuring the latest strategies and techniques to drive traffic to your website and convert that traffic into clients. Now, here's the founder and CEO of 10 Golden Rules, Jay Berkowitz.

Thank you so much. Great to be here, Steve.

We already talked a little bit about it, but I was really curious about why you focus on law firms. There's so many marketing agencies out there, but I never seen anyone that focused on such a narrow niche. So what? And then I'm going to link it to my my favorite question. So what is your personal why, and how are you manifesting it in your 10 golden rules agency, and and maybe there's a connection to law firms as well.

I'll start with my personal why, and my personal why is I really like to win, and I've done the Strengths Finder and different psychology tests, and I'm in the top, you know, whatever one or 5% of people who are competitive, and so, you know, I was competitive in sports, but I really want to do well in business, and I want my clients to do well. Like I really hate it if my clients not right at the top of Google, and if my client's not growing in more new cases signed every month. So that seems to be a really great fit for the business I'm in, which is helping clients with

growth strategies. Part of which is is the marketing piece, getting new traffic to their website. Part of it is conversion. So we do a lot of work with our clients on getting a higher percentage of the folks who do show up to call, to click, to fill out a form, and then we work with their intake teams on converting those opportunities. And the final piece we work with them is really running a five-star operation, meaning that they're getting more five-star Google reviews and getting more referrals from past clients and referral partners. So we do a lot of work in those three pieces of the

business to help law firms grow, and I really want them to win because when they win, I win selfishly.

No, I love it. I love it. Are you like an outsourced marketing department and marketing sales department for these law firms? How do you see yourselves as? What is the role that you fulfill?

Yeah, I mean we are a consulting agency. So first and foremost, we're going to help them strategically figure out where to focus. And we have a full, fully functioned digital marketing agency. So we do websites and SEO and local service ads and pay per click and social media and video, and lots of AI, and then, as a part of our consulting practice, we help with intake consulting that I mentioned before, and five star operations, and a big part of that is just finding the right partners, because we'll do high level intake coaching and point out if if they're not answering the

phone, if they're not putting the right people on the phone, and then we'll connect them with one of the top intake coaches in the legal industry. If their back end is a little little rough and needs some help, there's a number of partners. Like for example, there's a really great software called Case Status. We recommend to all of our clients, and imagine Case status is an app, so like when we all order an Uber or order food, we get updates. Hey, your driver's been selected. Your driver will be here in 10 minutes. Your driver's waiting outside. Do you want to have conversation with your

driver? What temperature do you want? And so there's a great app called Case Status, which can manage the case in an app for. That consumers are really used to. Hey, we've got your MRI booked, and here's the location, and here's the time. Don't forget your MRI is tomorrow at 8 a.m. Here's the location. If you can't make the MRI, click here. Hey, we got your MRI. We forwarded it to the the next surgeon in the case of a car accident. So using that software helps our firm get firms get five star Google ratings and lots more referrals, and that's just one small piece of the pie.

So within the niche of law firms, is this even a narrower niche of injury law firms that you work work with?

Yeah, it's funny because when when as a business person, you go from working on 200 SIC codes and you pick one. I'm only going to work with lawyers. Everybody always asks, like, which which niche within the niche? By the nature of our our business, 50 or 60 percent is personal injury. Just because those guys are really invested in marketing, they spend a lot of time and money on it, and we've built a little reputation, but we also have estate firms and family, family lawyers, criminal attorneys, sex abuse lawyers, securities attorneys. So I always say 50% is personal injury,

and 50% is everybody else who deals with consumers. Because for the most part, the B 2b lawyers, they're not going to spend a lot on marketing, but we have done some beautiful websites for them.

Very interesting. I have kind of a tangential question, but you may be able to help me answer because I've always been wondering about. I always see these billboards with the injury law firms promoting themselves. Why is and I get if someone gets you know gets a car and there's a billboard above them, then it's going to be an obvious thing for them to call. But it probably doesn't happen that often. So how is how these billboards so good for lawyers, or is it just a myth and they're just wasting their money on

it? No, I think the the math is pretty compelling, and the average personal injury firm will make between 10 and $20,000 on average on cases, and then there will be one or two or three, what what they call whales every year. So you know a terrible incident where like a FedEx truck or a commercial vehicle hits a family and there's serious injuries or death involved, and it's a multi-million dollar case, so the lawyers make a third of all the revenue that comes in on those cases, and they do a lot of work and they they have a lot of expenses too, but when there's millions of

dollars at stake for just one case, these guys can afford the TV advertising, the billboard advertising and the digital marketing that they do with

us. Yeah, so it's it's not just billboard. Billboard is just a visible one. It's basically Jerry' idea that they do a lot of advertising because being top of mind is important.

Yeah, for sure. And if you know, God forbid, someone you knew had an accident, you'd start noticing that every second ad on TV is also personal injury.

Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. So, so let's talk about frameworks because that's what this podcast is about. You know, business blueprints or you know business concepts that you have developed, you observed something that helps you makes you make sense or streamline the ideas that you deal with in in your business. Anything that comes to mind? Something that can be explained in three to five steps?

Yes, we I touched on a little bit a minute ago, and we call it our law firm success formula. And the first part is attract. The second part is convert. And the third the third part is five star operations, but I'll spend spend a couple more minutes on it. So, the attract piece is first and foremost, you've got to have your website dialed in. You have to have a contemporary website. If your website's more than five years old, it just sends a subtle, even subconscious message to folks that you're not current, and the design times changes over time, and also Google's functionality

is going to change, or the functionality of your website, as it's friendly to Google, particularly your mobile website. If it's five years old, is not going to be the current best practice, and Google is going to send, you know, they're going to come and test your mobile website, and they're going to send negative ratings back to the algorithm, and you're going to show up less in the searches. Equally important is your Google Business Profile, and that's your Google Maps address, and that has to be up to date and optimized and constantly updated with new content and blogs and videos and

information and photos from your location, because I always say that you don't own your Google Maps; you lease it from Google. But it's a second and very powerful web presence that a firm can help. So we do a lot of work on the websites, on the Google Maps, and there's a whole SEO protocol around local SEO that surrounds the Google Maps listing and how you're listed on your website and how you're linked to by local. Local businesses and the chamber of commerce and business associations and bar associations, and then the next piece is getting your message out there and optimizing for the AI.

And so the AI today is the that's important in my part of the business is the SEO AI, or a lot of us are calling it AEO answer engine optimization. So a lot of the work we're doing with our clients is answering questions on video, and that those videos go on YouTube, and then we also use the video on a blog on the website, and you can use those videos throughout the internet, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter. Even very importantly, add a video to your Google Maps every week, so we generally shoot a series of at least a dozen videos with the client every quarter, and have them answer questions.

Because

again, when you're asking questions of Google or Chat GPT or Claude, who's the best car accident if I was hit in an Uber? Who's best car accident attorney if I was hit in an Uber, so we literally answer that question, and the attorney will say one of the things I'm getting asked all the time now is who's the best car accident attorney if I'm hit in an Uber? Do I need a car accident attorney? And they'll go on to answer that question, but literally we put the question in the video. The question goes on their blog, goes on their website, goes on their their Facebook, their

Twitter. So it's a very effective strategy to target the AEO or the answer engine optimization. And by the way, there's a couple other pieces that are very important to come up in the AI. So number one is answering questions. Number two is becoming an expert. So getting written up in journals and your your bar association, your chamber of commerce, whatever industry you're in, getting on Wikipedia's and things like that, and answering questions on Reddit and Quora, which are the answer engine websites. And then the final piece is some technical stuff you can do on your website, and as

simple as adding frequently asked questions. Most people only have five FAQs on their website. You should have 50 or 100 today in this world of answer engine optimization. So the first piece in our in our formula is attracting traffic to the website and getting the brand right, and then the second piece is conversion. And I mentioned things like answering the phone. Super critical today that you answer the phone, and I know that sounds obvious, but Google is actually tracking how long it takes you to answer the phone when someone clicks off a Google ad or a Google Maps listing, and if you if

it takes more than 15 seconds and three rings, Google's going to again downgrade you for future listings, and it's not nefarious. There's nothing negative. It's just like when people use Google, Google wants them to have a successful experience. So if they're looking for a car accident lawyer or a shoe repair or a pizza, if you don't answer the phone quickly, the next time they're going to put you down a little bit lower in the listings. Conversion is a multifaceted program that we help our clients with answering the phone with empathy answering the phone with a professional who can

handle the call and not somebody who's a busy trial attorney or a busy paralegal and they don't even want to take calls so you really need a professional who's trained to to convert those those opportunities, and then we've also built some software to optimize any missed calls. And we even have a software when people fill out a form on the website, it immediately sends a text to the intake team so you can call them back. Because we've all had that experience where you fill out the form on the website, and you wait five minutes, 10 minutes, an hour, a day. By then, you forgot whose form

you filled out, and you filled out a couple other forms on other other law firms' websites or other marketing agencies or consultants' websites, right? So, very important that we have the software that immediately texts the form information to the intake team. They can call the person right back. And then the final piece I talked about five star operations, and we have several programs to help our clients get more Google reviews and get more referrals from their existing clients and and their their referral partners. And one of the subtle things that a lot of people don't do, and this is

the easiest, most cost-effective marketing piece, is just sending out a monthly newsletter. I mean, every business and every law firm and every marketing agency has to have a monthly newsletter. It's very inexpensive. You can use Mailchimp or Constant Contact and send out some valuable information.

Some of your community activities, if you're speaking at at the Chamber of Commerce or your bar association, or I'm speaking at an industry conference, and every time I send out a newsletter, I get two or three calls. Oh, Jay, I was meaning to call you. We want to redo our website, or Jay, would you be on my podcast? Thank you for that, Steve. And just being top of mind increases your business opportunities. Those referrals. So there's a number of those programs that we do. Help our clients get more five-star Google reviews and more high-value referrals.

That's fantastic. You're really very systematic about it. I mean, this is a huge framework, so I don't I don't know if we can promote. It's not going to be easy to promote all parts of it, but I really like the AEO optimization element. You know, answering questions, becoming an expert on Wikipedia, Reddit, Quora, and the FAQs. Is there anything else there in this AEO optimization that may be important? Yeah,

times it came up with 269 questions that I get asked on a regular basis on my sales calls, and now we're systematically answering those questions on videos and blogs and content on our website because we know those are the questions that we get asked on a frequent basis by people who are interested in our products and services. So if you can find the true questions that you're asked, I I often joke that Margaret the receptionist, you should give her a little clipboard beside her desk, and every question that comes in through the intake department, you want her to write it down and then hand that

off to your marketing department and write a blog post. Because literally, the questions that people are asking about car accidents or divorces or consulting services or marketing blueprints, those are the questions that people are are asking Google and Chat GPT and Claude. So if you proactively collect and answer the questions, that's very powerful. And then in the expertise area, things you can do like creating, getting in Wikipedia's, which is hard to get. You really have to be a a known public figure today to get approved for Wikipedia, but Grok has its own Grokpedia, and there's

several other PDS out there, including you know just making sure that you're properly listed in all of your industry association listings and your your local business associations. When you just take a look at who's linking to your competitors, you're going to find a list of 200 websites that list to that link to and list your competitors, and you can get listed in all those places in most of those places because there there's multiple chambers of commerce and business associations and bar associations in every region, and that's true for every business, not just for lawyers. And then the

final piece about the five-star operations: the simplest insight there is, if you want lots of five-star reviews, you have to run a five-star business. You know, you have to think of yourself like a five-star hotel, and when you walk it, you know when you when you show up at the Ritz or the Four Seasons, which I'm lucky enough to do a couple times a year because I go to lawyer conferences, and those guys don't fool around. You know that even as you pull up, they're like, "Oh, welcome, mr. Berkowitz." I'm like, "How do they know that?" Probably because I told them what type of car I was

coming in, or they'll ask you, you know, are are you staying here? And your name is mr. Berkowitz. And then as soon as the person hands your bags off and they take you to reception, you're mr. Berkowitz for the rest of your stay. They know who you are. They recognize the you know staff are trained to give you that high level of service. And then when you go over to the concierge, and there's someone whose whose whole job is to make your visit great and get you fantastic dinner reservations and and nurture your whole relationship, get you theater tickets or concert tickets. So if

you think of your business as a five star operation from the first time they call to every conversation, it you know they should know mr. Berkowitz. They should be able to pull up your file. They should know what the status of your your business relationship is, or or your legal case. And in fact, we we recommend the software I talked about earlier.

So they're proactively sending you updates on your case. You don't even have to call in. And the number one bar complaint is my lawyer won't doesn't answer the phone doesn't give me updates on the status of my case, and I think that's true for every business. So if you're proactively sending out updates and information to your clients, they're proactively happy as opposed to you know reactively trying to chase you down.

Basically, you cannot fake being a good business. You have to be a good business, but it's good to. Reminded of what it takes to be a five-star service. Yeah, you're

right. You could five years ago you could fake it. Today you can't fake it. The Google reviews are omnipresent, and I think in 70 or 80% of businesses, I saw a data point the other day. People look at Google reviews before they work with a company.

Yeah, that is true. That is true. Thanks for reminding me. So, what drives growth in your marketing agency business?

I think there's three big chunks of business opportunities for us. The first one and the best one for everybody is always referrals, and so I do a lot of hard work to nurture my referral base. As a matter of fact, I've even created my own sort of networking group, if you will, of other people who call on the same types of businesses that I do, and I make sure that I I reach out to them, and have a quick Zoom call. I met with two of them this morning on just a half an hour Zoom call, finding out what's up in their life, what type of referrals they're looking for, and

asking how I can give and giving as many referrals as I get. So building those relationships, we call it no like and trust in networking, and constantly building those relationships and then spending time with them at the industry conferences to really put a focus that I think I made a mistake and I ignored that up until the last four or five years, and now I spend more time at a conference on the trade show floor with the other vendors as I do trying to meet the attorneys. Because if you build a relationship with a vendor who has 200 clients, you can get 200 referrals. If you build a

relationship with a one-off prospect, you can get one. Maybe you know. Maybe he'll refer you to someone he does he does business with. But really, building those those relationships, those referral relationships, has been fruitful for me. And then the second piece is is those trade shows. And there's an expression we use in my mastermind, which is stage time is money time, and if you can become an expert and and develop a book and a presentation and get featured at your industry conference, that's the best way to end those those conferences. And if you haven't spoken on stage at your

industry conference, I highly recommend it. There's about 10 benefits that you don't even know about that. People reach out to you beforehand, even before the conference, to book you on their podcast or book a meeting with you or introduce you to someone. At the conference itself, there's often a green room, which is a private area where you can do some business, where the other speakers are, and often the media is also in the green room, so you've got access to some of the most influential and and influencers at the conference itself, and then obviously after you're on stage, everyone wants

to be your best friend if you if you do a good job, if you if your presentation is high value, yeah, you know that's one of the best conference hacks, and then we you know we try and do everything to optimize having a booth and having a presence at the conference or whatever we're doing there. We often host a party or a dinner as well, and a lot of times we do that with our vendor friends that I talked about earlier. I mean, it really gives you a chance to stand out at the conference itself. And then the third piece is marketing, and we've been very fortunate and successful. We started a

webinar series six years ago, and every month for six years without fail, we've done a webinar: SEO for lawyers, pay per click for lawyers, social media for lawyers, video for lawyers, and then branching out into things like EOS, the entrepreneurial operating system. We do an annual business planning webinar, and thankfully, about two years ago, February, one of those videos took off in YouTube. Something in the algorithm, it just loved it, and people were watching a long time on this video, and they were watching other videos after they watched this video. And I used to be so proud

And then we'll also market that in several different ways. We send emails. Hey, please come to our our monthly live streaming event. You know we're gonna we've got a great panel. We're going to teach you all about the latest technologies in AI for lawyers, and then those panel partners will promote the event as well. And then when we send the emails in advance of the webinar, we post on our LinkedIn, my personal LinkedIn, company Facebook, Jay's Facebook, Twitter, company Twitter, and then after we hey a lot. People said they missed the webinar, that they couldn't get the link to work.

Here's a replay of the webinar, and then we take snippets from the webinar and put it in our social media. So that and and a weekly podcast has been very very powerful inbound marketing and thought leadership marketing for the firm.

Love it. That's really cool. You got some good good processes, but then thanks for sharing. This is interesting. The 10 technology tips, and it's got a good title for sure, and and I'm sure that you know it's a good niche as well, and well done doing this. You know, so no no business perfect, of course. What is something that you're actively trying to figure out in your business.

I've been spectacularly unsuccessful at hiring salespeople, and a number of my my friends in my mastermind say the best day of their life is when they hire a salesperson who can sell better than them. We have a great sales process and we have a great sales team, but I haven't yet found the the person who's a little bit more effective in nurturing and closing the sales. I definitely have some work to do still in building a sales team.

Well, Steve, thank you because that's one of my favorite topics, and we're big proponents of the EOS, the entrepreneurial operating system, and the book Traction. And by the way, my my hot tip to anyone who's who's hearing this and is a business owner: don't read the book Traction first. Read this book, Get a Grip, because Get a Grip tells you the story of Traction, but it's told as a story. And if you're the founder, what what EOS calls a visionary, Traction's more like an operations manual, and that's for your COO, your chief operating officer. So read, get a grip, and then we

got started three or four years ago self implementing EOS, and two and a half years ago we hired an implementer and did a full scale EOS entrepreneurial operating system integration into our business, and that was when we were around 10 or 12 people. And when you're a small business, 567 employees, every all of them can report to the CEO, and we had very hands-on training. And as the business grew, and we got to 10 or 12, that's where you're supposed to develop leadership specialties. And obviously, 12 people can't report to you, and you're getting busier in sales and marketing and speaking and

flying all over the place. So, as we built this EOS leadership team, it's been a real fantastic awakening for me because now there's people who are very very competent at what they do. They're leading each of our departments, and I don't have to sit in all the seats anymore. I found people who are better than me, smarter than me at what they do to lead each of those teams.

That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. If you are running, if someone is learning a little firm out there and listening to all that advice, and they'd like to learn more, where should they go, and where can they connect with you?

Well, the easiest thing is to go to tengoldenrules.com, or I'm Jay Berkowitz on most of the social media, because when a new social media comes out, I always grab the name Jay Berkowitz. Probably much to the chagrin of a couple guys who are probably more important than me, Professor Jay Berkowitz and chiropractor Jay Berkowitz, and if you guys are hearing this, I'm sorry, Doctor Jay Berkowitz, but I always, you know, I've got the Twitter and the Facebook and the LinkedIn handle.

Yeah, that's pretty cool. Actually, I was wondering because this podcast has been running for six years, and I had the recollection that I had a Jay Berkowitz on this show four or five years ago, and I had had to make sure that it wasn't you. It's funny that you mentioned this. That that's awesome. So this is pretty impressive. Not just as a law firm business or a law firm owner, but anyone. I mean, these ideas that Jay you shared with us: how to attract people on your website, how to leverage AI and become an expert, and create those FAQs and harvest them from your sales

conversations, and then how you build a five-step operation so that you actually retain those clients and get them to refer and give you testimonials. That's very very valuable stuff. So I recommend all of you to to look into implementing some of the stuff or reach out to Jay at one of the Jay Berkowitz handles or on the 10 Golden Rules website. So Jay, thank you for coming and sharing your ideas and and experiences and frameworks, particularly. Frameworks, and if you enjoyed listening, then stay tuned because every week I bring a couple of amazing entrepreneurs to this show. So thanks, Jay,

for coming, and

you're welcome, Steve. Thanks for having me.